Template talk:Combatencounter

This is a new template I am proposing as a replacement for the {{fight}} template. I am proposing this simplified template because of my personal experience that the old one is too complicated to use (with no disrespect to Satan and anyone else involved in the original template).

The ideas behind this template are:

• The amount of damage in a hit/critical/fumble is probably correlated to the enemy level. It is therefore not needed to record it.
• Recording damage is also extremely hard since the exact effects of armor power is unknown.
• There is a very large number of possibilities for elemental damage. Creating a template for each and every one complicates the template
• There are currently no special critical and fumble messages.
• It is very important to know not only what is documented, but also what isn't.

As a result this template is very simple when it comes to documenting hit messages. All you need to do is document the text between "Your opponent attacks ..." and "<> hits you for X damage."

The "hitnotes" field is used for reporting anything specific about the damage, type, special amounts, etc.

Other things I added:

• "a" and "an" are not pronouns, they are indefinite articles. The field to report them is |indef= where |pronoun= is used for reporting the pronoun ("He", "She", "It", etc.) There is no default value for either field. If no indefinite article is used, one needs to set it to !. This is done on purpose so we know the information is recorded.
• One needs to specifically set |hit1=! and |miss1=! to specify that there are no special hit/miss messages.
• One needs to specifically set |chips=0 to indicate that no chips drop.
• One can add post fight messages in the |postfight= field
• |drop1=, |drop2= etc. for reporting drop rates.
• |res= is a free text field. I find that this is much simpler.
• For most fields, if the field is not set, there is no need to use the {{needscontent}} template. The page is autocategorized as missing data.

I would very much appreciate feedback on this template. I will start converting some example fights so we can see how it looks, and if it is indeed simpler to use.--Muhandes 11:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

From a maintenance perspective, I've never liked limiting the number of messages/drops with numbered parameters. This runs the risk of needing template updates whenever the game creates new foes with more messages/drops than we've allocated parameters for. This is in fact already broken at Zion's Tears demiurge: the conditional drops are listed in an entirely separate section. It's also more unnecessary typing if we go the hit1, hit2, etc route. Hitting <enter> twice for a line break is far easier, and is there any reason we need to differentiate hit messages from each other? Hit notes can be handled by using specially formatted text (e.g., small), either using explicit tags or some specialised template, immediately before or after the appropriate hit text. This makes it less likely to require reordering hit notes if messages get changed and an editor forgets about the parameter's existence.

Relatedly, I've previously noted that it's very inefficient to have image name + item name parameters everywhere. Some items need both image and item name added to the Color, item, and drop combat page. It could potentially get worse, as it seems some effect pages use the image in the Obtained From section. Implementing a data namespace and using something like {{acquire}} on the KoLWiki would make creating new pages and maintaining theh THWiki much less of a headache.

--Bagatelle ^T/_C 18:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The reason for differentiating hit/miss messages is that almost all foes I am aware of have either 3 special messages, or none. Thus having 3 fields encourages one to check for all 3.

I tend to agree about hitnotes, we can standardize this outside the template, which will cause less problems in the end. I can add a "hitnote" template which could be used at the end of the line to indicate damage type etc.

As for adding a data name space, I'm all for it, I just don't know how. If someone wants to add it I'd be more than happy. This template was straightforward so I opted to start with it.

--Muhandes 18:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

bump, any other thoughts?--Muhandes 09:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Currently, the maximum number of possible messages is 3 (be glad, the Fusion Octotron originally had 7 attack and miss messages...). Limiting the template to three seems perfectly reasonable, especially if the template leaves blank additional messages (ie: a monster with only 1 special wouldn't have two blanks) that way, if the code was changed, the additional messages could be added as needed without reworking every monster in the game. However, I don't like having elemental damage notes explained at the end. In line color flows much more nicely, and is more intuitive. Cristiona

I took your advice and removed the hitnotes field. You can use the {{hitnote}} template to specify it, see for example Orca with rocket launcher. For now I'm undecided about multiple hit/miss/item messages. I see benefit in keeping it this way, as we tried it before in one field and it was a mess, but I also see Bagatelle's point. Any other thoughts? Any other things you would like to see/not to see in this template?--Muhandes 07:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed that all hit and miss messages start with the pronoun. This means even less to write down, unless someone can find exceptions.--Muhandes 17:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And a minute afterwards I found an exception: fusion octotron's miss message.--Muhandes 17:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)