Difference between revisions of "Talk:Extra attacks"

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:With the same setup as above, my result was 18.8-29.6 and what I guess were crits (31.6 - Human campfire)38.4-50
 
:With the same setup as above, my result was 18.8-29.6 and what I guess were crits (31.6 - Human campfire)38.4-50
 
--[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 10:38, 9 November 2010 (PST)<br><br>
 
--[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 10:38, 9 November 2010 (PST)<br><br>
−
Gadget/Zeno's Bow/lvl 7/ Ref 71 (50)/ +10 ranged/max 3, 11-18, crit 28-33<br>
 
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Gadget/Zeno's Bow/lvl 7/ Ref 71 (50)//max 3, 8.6-15, crit 24<br><br>
 
−
Until now average I gave were with +ranged calculated in, cause I assumed wrongly that +ranged is added to each attack. However, from data I collected it looks it's rather added at the end together with elemental damage. Therefore since now I will be deducing +ranged from damaged dealt and then divide by number of attacks to calculate average.<br><br>
 
  
−
--[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 12:06, 9 November 2010 (PST)<br><br>
+
Data removed by myself, cause it didn't add anything useful anymore --[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 23:46, 14 November 2010 (PST)
 +
 
 +
If you're trying to spade bonus ranged attacks, why are you corrupting your data by using only weapons that add additional attacks?  For what it's worth, I believe the max number of natural attacks is 8.  [[User:Cristiona|Cristiona]]
 +
:So far I was spading simply while playing and I used weapons which I found best at the moment. But I still don't see why using +attack weapons corrupts the data. Natural as in just reflexes based? --[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 04:22, 12 November 2010 (PST)
 +
::If you're just trying to find an ultimate ceiling, find some level 70 player, juice up their reflexes and have them attack a level 1 thug with a [[Furnace of Yeb]] while wearing [[Typhoon's Bracers]] (or that spoon, or whatever the current version is) and call it a night.  If you're trying to actually find the reflexes break points, then using +attack weapons will thoroughly corrupt your data.  And yes, by natural, I mean without any +attacks from weapons.  Somewhere in the forums should be a post by Ryme describing the mechanics when he introduced them, but it's probably pretty buried by now.  [[User:Cristiona|Cristiona]]
 +
:::But number of extra attacks added by weapon is not unknown. Already from the table I can say that breakpoint for reflexes giving 2 extra attacks is between 118 and 127. And thanks for idea, I will have small request for hoyifung =] --[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 03:03, 13 November 2010 (PST)
 +
::::The data above is missing a key part: the enemy.  In the [[Cube Theater]], my accounts hit a fairly consistent number of times against the normal enemies, but against [[Villains]], that number varies greatly.  I've collected data from a day (120 turns), and from what I've seen, criticals more or less double damage with one fewer hit.  I've sent the data to Shikao.  Also, I believe that Cris is right in saying that the maximum number of natural hits is eight.  --[[User:Hoyifung04|hoyifung04]] 19:19, 14 November 2010 (PST)
 +
:::Ah, [http://www.twilightheroes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9447#p9447 here's] the post Cris mentioned!  No longer buried!  --[[User:Hoyifung04|hoyifung04]] 19:34, 14 November 2010 (PST)
 +
::::Thanks for unburying that post hoyifung! It gives a great insight. I will need completely different approach to spade damage per attack, cause damage diminish with each attack. As for criticals, I have similar conclusion - crits have one attack less than current maximum (counting weapon bonus) and deals double damage. Also thanks for all the data, now let's see what it tells us.--[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 23:46, 14 November 2010 (PST)
 +
::::Tons of new data thanks to [[User:Patojonas|Patojonas]]! =D Just 3 more points spaded and table will be completed. I put my educated guesses in (). Thank you very much again Patojonas! --[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 12:11, 14 December 2010 (PST)
 +
::::Patojonas was so kind to spade missing points! =] Project finished, time to move onto next one. --[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 04:19, 15 December 2010 (PST)
 +
 
 
{| cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" border="1" align="center" style="text-align:center" class="sortable"
 
{| cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" border="1" align="center" style="text-align:center" class="sortable"
 
|- style="background-color:#008080"
 
|- style="background-color:#008080"
−
!'''Class'''!! '''Level''' !! '''Reflex''' !! '''Weapon''' !! '''+ranged total<br>(including weapon)''' !! '''max attacks in round''' !! '''average attack''' !! '''average crit'''
+
!'''Bonus attacks'''!! '''Reflexes'''  
 
|-
 
|-
−
| [[Gadgeteer]] || 8 || 84(57) || [[The golem's Glock]] || +10 || 3 || 17-29.6 || 51
+
| 0 || 0-50
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 8 || 89(62) || [[The golem's Glock]] || +10 || 3 || 16-28.6 ||
+
| 1 || 51-120
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 9 || 91(70) || [[Umbra's Shadow Blaster]] || 0 || 5 || 10.4-18 || 24-31.5
+
| 2 || 121-220
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 10 || 100(78) || [[Umbra's Shadow Blaster]] || 0 || 5 || 12-17.5 || 27-36.5
+
| 3 || 221-350
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 10 || 103(77) || [[Umbra's Shadow Blaster]] || +10 || 5 || 11-26 || 27.5-40.5
+
| 4 || 351-510
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 11 || 118(86) || [[Umbra's Shadow Blaster]] || +20 || 5 || 12.2-26 || 25-41.5
+
| 5 || 511-700
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 11 || 138(93) || [[Umbra's Shadow Blaster]] || +10 || 6 || 15.4-27.8 || 38.4-62
+
| 6 || 701-920
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Gadgeteer || 12 || 147(104) || [[Umbra's Shadow Blaster]] || +10 || 6 || 15.8-21.8 || 30.4-46.4
+
| 7 || 921+
 
|}
 
|}
  
  
−
If you're trying to spade bonus ranged attacks, why are you corrupting your data by using only weapons that add additional attacks? For what it's worth, I believe the max number of natural attacks is 8. [[User:Cristiona|Cristiona]]
+
''You attack ... you sweep your weapon back and forth, doing a weird sort of spraying motion. You don't know if that helped you hit 16 times or not, but it made you feel better. Your opponent? Not so much. They're left hurting for 19143 +50 damage.''
−
:So far I was spading simply while playing and I used weapons which I found best at the moment. But I still don't see why using +attack weapons corrupts the data. Natural as in just reflexes based? --[[User:Shikao|Shikao]] 04:22, 12 November 2010 (PST)
+
 
 +
Furnace, spoon, keyed up and 921+ reflexes, as good as it gets atm. Guess there's no ultimate ceiling...so far. [[User:Patojonas|Patojonas]]
 +
 
 +
Might sound silly, but how do extra ranged attacks help? I mean for example I have a hammer that seems to do the same damage as a ranged weapon with the same power level(so it doesn't seem to have 2x damage?), with the bow having a +1 ranged attack.  Is it a to hit thing?  Are crit chances calculated for each it?
 +
:Extra ranged attacks help by being extra attacks.  What's better?  One chance to hit for 10 or two chances to hit for 10 each?  It's not exactly a straight comparison, especially at lower levels, because melee weapons get bonus damage based on your strength, which might be why a lower-powered melee does the same damage as two attacks from a ranged weapon. [[User:Cristiona|Cristiona]]

Latest revision as of 22:50, 16 February 2011

More info

I was playing gadgeteer when suddenly hundred of questions regarding ranged attacks in round popped in my mind. Maybe some of them you could answer right away, others you will maybe say are not worthy being mentioned in wiki, nevertheless here they are:

  • What is maximum attacks in round? Is there any? Does it depend?
So far I saw 6 - Gadget/Umbra/lvl 11/Ref 126 (93)/ +10 ranged
  • What affects their number?
Some weapons - for sure. Reflex too, but how exactly?
  • How much physical dmg deals one attack?
With the same setup as above, my result was 18.8-29.6 and what I guess were crits (31.6 - Human campfire)38.4-50

--Shikao 10:38, 9 November 2010 (PST)

Data removed by myself, cause it didn't add anything useful anymore --Shikao 23:46, 14 November 2010 (PST)

If you're trying to spade bonus ranged attacks, why are you corrupting your data by using only weapons that add additional attacks? For what it's worth, I believe the max number of natural attacks is 8. Cristiona

So far I was spading simply while playing and I used weapons which I found best at the moment. But I still don't see why using +attack weapons corrupts the data. Natural as in just reflexes based? --Shikao 04:22, 12 November 2010 (PST)
If you're just trying to find an ultimate ceiling, find some level 70 player, juice up their reflexes and have them attack a level 1 thug with a Furnace of Yeb while wearing Typhoon's Bracers (or that spoon, or whatever the current version is) and call it a night. If you're trying to actually find the reflexes break points, then using +attack weapons will thoroughly corrupt your data. And yes, by natural, I mean without any +attacks from weapons. Somewhere in the forums should be a post by Ryme describing the mechanics when he introduced them, but it's probably pretty buried by now. Cristiona
But number of extra attacks added by weapon is not unknown. Already from the table I can say that breakpoint for reflexes giving 2 extra attacks is between 118 and 127. And thanks for idea, I will have small request for hoyifung =] --Shikao 03:03, 13 November 2010 (PST)
The data above is missing a key part: the enemy. In the Cube Theater, my accounts hit a fairly consistent number of times against the normal enemies, but against Villains, that number varies greatly. I've collected data from a day (120 turns), and from what I've seen, criticals more or less double damage with one fewer hit. I've sent the data to Shikao. Also, I believe that Cris is right in saying that the maximum number of natural hits is eight. --hoyifung04 19:19, 14 November 2010 (PST)
Ah, here's the post Cris mentioned! No longer buried! --hoyifung04 19:34, 14 November 2010 (PST)
Thanks for unburying that post hoyifung! It gives a great insight. I will need completely different approach to spade damage per attack, cause damage diminish with each attack. As for criticals, I have similar conclusion - crits have one attack less than current maximum (counting weapon bonus) and deals double damage. Also thanks for all the data, now let's see what it tells us.--Shikao 23:46, 14 November 2010 (PST)
Tons of new data thanks to Patojonas! =D Just 3 more points spaded and table will be completed. I put my educated guesses in (). Thank you very much again Patojonas! --Shikao 12:11, 14 December 2010 (PST)
Patojonas was so kind to spade missing points! =] Project finished, time to move onto next one. --Shikao 04:19, 15 December 2010 (PST)
Bonus attacks Reflexes
0 0-50
1 51-120
2 121-220
3 221-350
4 351-510
5 511-700
6 701-920
7 921+


You attack ... you sweep your weapon back and forth, doing a weird sort of spraying motion. You don't know if that helped you hit 16 times or not, but it made you feel better. Your opponent? Not so much. They're left hurting for 19143 +50 damage.

Furnace, spoon, keyed up and 921+ reflexes, as good as it gets atm. Guess there's no ultimate ceiling...so far. Patojonas

Might sound silly, but how do extra ranged attacks help? I mean for example I have a hammer that seems to do the same damage as a ranged weapon with the same power level(so it doesn't seem to have 2x damage?), with the bow having a +1 ranged attack. Is it a to hit thing? Are crit chances calculated for each it?

Extra ranged attacks help by being extra attacks. What's better? One chance to hit for 10 or two chances to hit for 10 each? It's not exactly a straight comparison, especially at lower levels, because melee weapons get bonus damage based on your strength, which might be why a lower-powered melee does the same damage as two attacks from a ranged weapon. Cristiona
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